No, a lot of people think that, look at the recent incident with Janet Jackson. Thousands, possibly millions of people were outraged because of a one second exposure of a women's breast. Where is the outcry from the fact that many TV shows include nearly limitless amounts of violence and gore?



and I respect you for these beliefs I was raised the same way, but I no longer believe that way.



this is a poor argument, teaching children to be safe does not equal teaching children immorality. If I teach a child to defend themselves against a physical attacker, is that encouraging them to be violent? Education does not equal moral corruption.



Once again, I don't advocate the teaching of morals in any way, I advocate education. I think children should be taught to use guns in school too, but I'm also a fan of stricter gun control. And the schools wouldn't need to be involved in this education at all. If parent's would talk to their kids about safe sex and such then everything would be fine. But most parents, including mine, are too uncomfortable to tell their kids, "these are my moral values, your free to make your own descisions, but if you decide to have sex, this is how to be safe."

But on a broader note:

I think you misunderstood what I was saying completely. My comments were not against people who don't want their children exposed to pornography, what the Planned Parenthood people did was inappropriate. My comments were directed towards our country's tendency to favor violence, something unnatural and completely unhealthy, over sex, which is something natural to be revered and enjoyed.

-Bob

I agree with naked prophet on some accounts, but not all.

They need to be taught what safe sex is and how to use it. Face it, people will have underage and premartial sex. Teaching absinentce (sp?) isn't going to help at all. Hormones have a much stronger voice then the voice of absinentce.

As far as the violence thing goes i also think that is pretty strange, but we live in a strange society.
On an almost completely unrelated note, i found it interesting that in the movie Equilibrium they show dozens of people dyning, but when they start to execute a kennel full of dogs, they don't show anything on screen. Pretty sad when the movie will show many human deaths, but not an animal death. BTW, i don't have much of a problem with violence in movies, ive been watching violent movies for most of my life and i don't have any violent urges.

BobWard,

Why do you consider violence to be unnatural and unhealthy?

True, I wouldn't want Joe Nobody to teach my young child how to use a heel-hook to partially cripple someone any more than I'd want them teaching my child about sex. I would agree, also, that our culture tends to show favor on violence, but neglect sex. But, like sex, violence would seem to quite obviously be natural. Most anyone who's owned multiple pets (or watched a nature show) can attest to that.

Asside from that, I'd say that in moderation, violence is healthy. I know that when I'm finished sparring (which, in my case, is basically free-fighting), I feel like all of my pent-up anger has been released from me, which has the happy side effect of making me less violent overall. However, anyone who sees it couldn't deny that the act itself is quite violent. But, doesn't that make me, at least psychologically, healthier?

There's nothing wrong with working out aggressions, but glorifying murder and meningless violence is another matter. Teaching kids to take entertainment from death is the problem.

-Bob

I went to a Catholic Grade school and we started a version of sex-ed in 2nd or 3rd grade and had it every year through 8th grade. It didn't have any pictures as described above but it painted a picture with words.

do you really think it was about the breast? a man rips off a woman's clothing to expose a part of her body that she wanted covered. that's called sexual assault. in any other situation (like on campus, or at a party, or in a mall, etc) that would be grounds for criminal prosecution and/or a lawsuit. if she had been dancing by herself and suffered a "wardrobe malfunction" and bared her breast even for several seconds, i think it wouldn't have been nearly the big deal it was.

and people have been trying to get hollywood to cut down on the "nearly limitless amounts of violence and gore" in movies and on TV for a long time, but they are always stifled by "free speech" advocates and hollywood officials who say "movies reflect reality." the people who want to protect their children from "sex ed" are the same ones who don't let their children watch violent movies and TV, and are usually labeled extremists and censors because they oppose violence and gore. you don't hear about them because they're old news and violence and gore are such accepted values of society that nobody listens to them any more than people listen to those who say that music is morally wrong.



of course not, well, not if you don't believe sex outside of marriage is immoral. my whole point is that the people who advocate the "teaching children to be safe" don't believe sex outside of marriage is wrong, and they certainly don't teach that. they're actively teaching that anything they want to do sexually is okay, just wear a condom.

even if a teacher believes sex outside of marriage is wrong, "teaching children to be safe" does nothing more than tell kids it's okay. it just doesn't work to tell kids (or anyone) "don't do this, but when you do, do it this way." that's effectively giving them permission to do it. it's like saying "don't drive drunk, but when you do, only drive 20 mph" or "don't cheat on your tests, but when you do, change the answers a little so it doesn't look copied." it's a little safer, but it's still wrong.



that's right. and "sex ed" is not education any more. yes, it's okay to teach kids about their bodies and how they work, but not to tell them what is morally right and wrong. that's what sex ed is nowadays, telling kids that it's okay to have sex with whoever whenever... as long as they use a condom. THAT is what parents have a problem with.



what kind of a horrible parent would say "these are my moral values, your free to make your own descisions, but if you decide to have sex, this is how to be safe" to their children? if you believe something is morally wrong, don't you have a responsibility to make sure your kids don't do it? i'm not going to tell my kids "these are my moral values, you're free to make your own decisions, but if you decide to murder someone, this is how to not get caught." yes, there comes a time when they can make their own decisions, but that is well after they are old enough to be pressured into having sex. when your children are young, they look to you for moral guidance, and if you are too weak to tell your children "this is wrong, that is right" etc, then either you care nothing for your children or you never believed that those things were right or wrong in the first place. my point is that if you believe something is associated with a moral value, you have a responsibility to make sure your children grow up with that moral value until they are old enough to make their own mature decisions.

yes, i have many of the same moral values as my parents. they taught me that some things were wrong; murder, lying, stealing, cheating, adultery, etc. i still believe in those things. however, once i became an adult, i made my own decisions, some of which my parents disapprove, such as my decision to drink wine. if my parents had taken your approach, why in the world would i choose to believe that stealing was wrong? if i steal a cookie from jennie, then i get another cookie! there's no downside! if i lie about stealing that cookie, then i don't get punished! if i cheat on my test, then i get an A in the class and i don't have to study! if i have sex with jennie, i don't have to make a committment or take responsibility for any children or emotional pain i cause her! there's no downside! WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANY 6-10 YEAR OLD CHOOSE ANY MORALITY OVER THAT?



especially when you teach abstinence like this: "sex is wrong, but since you're going to do it anyway, use a condom."

Face it, people will murder and rape people. teaching that it's morally wrong isn't going to help at all...

and bobward, i did not intend to specifically target you. this is more of a general response to the sentiments expressed in part by pigeonhole and yourself and others. i don't have a problem with you or anyone else, i realize that most people only regurgitate what they were taught without thinking. more than trying to convince anyone of my particular viewpoint (i am well aware that i could be wrong, i have been wrong in the past and have changed my viewpoints many times on many issues) i want to make people think about what they believe and why they believe it.

I like your arguments, Naked. I think it's important that the kids get a real education on the biological aspects of their changing bodies so they know that what they're going through is normal, and STDs, ect, but there is a point where you have to draw the line in public schooling. I'm not sure if I have a problem with teaching what a condom or birth control or things like that are, but I think the teaching of "practice safe sex" or even "practice abstinence" (sp?) ect should be left up to the parents. That's more of a moral thing than an educational thing - not to be dealt with by the state.

OK, here's my angle... laud me or condemn me at will... in all honesty I don't care what you think of me.

It's been said by various parties that sex-ed is wrong because it teaches a specific set of moral values. I tend to agree with this, and would support a disbanding of such programs IF parents could be trusted to broach the subject with their children when they feel they are ready to learn. This would allow parent's to teach whatever they feel is morally right and wrong to their children.

This cannot be taken for granted, though. I, for one, never got "The Talk" from my parents. I had learned about human sexuality from (don't laugh too hard) a computer encyclopedia. As far as moral application, I took a variety of things I learned from what I'd been taught in general from my parents and what I'd heard in church. Over time, as I've learned more and learned to think for myself, those beliefs have modified slightly, as everyone's do.

However, just as the sex-ed programs are flawed for their single-mindedness, boycotting a children's organization so that you can impose your set of beliefs is also wrong. Sex outside of marriage is wrong--from a Judeo-Christian point of view, but what about those who are atheist or agnostic? Imposing Judeo-Christian mores on them is just as wrong from their perspective as teaching sex-ed without addressing the "moral values" is wrong from the Judeo-Christian perspective.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that we should just keep our nose out of everyone else's business. If one person wants to believe in God and go to church and think that homosexuality is wrong and be Republican, that's their prerogative. However, if someone else wants to be atheist, have nothing against homosexuality or abortion, and be Democrat (just for the sake of argument), that's their prerogative as well. A famous man (I can't remember at the moment who it was) said, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my face." This can be applied figuratively to social and moral beliefs. Your right to espouse your beliefs ends when it infringes those of another.

Now that I've gone on far too long about this, I think I'll just stop... I believe I've made my point...

heh heh

This all boils down to,...regardless of moral beliefs...there are serious, life altering/ending, effects to irresponsible sexual acts.

We NEED to empower all of our brothers and sisters on how to protect themselves. I dont believe any human is too young to know about how their body works.

And as far as statistics go...let me tell you of something that happened a few years ago. My ex was a daycare worker in kansas city. She had to confront 2 sets of parents becuase their boys had convinced a girl to give them oral satisfaction. They were only 8 and 9 years old!!!!

This is unbelieavable to me. But it HAPPENS. We need to stop worrying about moral depravity, and just give the kids the facts about human sexuality/anatomy. Parents cannot be there 100% of the time.

all i have to say.

You make an excellent point. Here's an idea concocted in 30 seconds at 1:17 am. What if the sex-ed courses were modified to teach how to be safe should sexual activity occur and to, of course, touch on the option of abstinence, but instead of leaving it there, saying that different people have different moral views and that they should ask their parents about it? That would increase the chances of parents telling their children what they think they need to know instead of just ignoring it as many do. Just a thought...

How about this? Make sex ed an afterschool program that parents must enroll their kids in. That way, parents have more control over how/what their child learns about sex. This is no different than having a child enrolled in a martial arts class to learn to protect themselves physically, except this would be through the school. If parents feel strongly against these types of classes, then they don't enroll their children and instead teach them in their own manner. Seem like a fair compromise?

I have no clue. I have never had the analogy explained to me. It's probably something really stupid. Like maybe the birds want to eat the bees but the bees sting the birds whenever they try. At least, that's how my sex life goes. I'm always trying to eat those damn bees.

Stop worrying about moral depravity?? You're right, people should be able to do whatever they want, no matter how immoral, so come over here so I can chop your head off. Yeah, yeah, it stops when i hurt you, but that's not how it used to be. We keep people from doing bad stuff for a reason. You tell us about how 8-9 year olds are sucking each other off and then tell us to not worry about moral depravity? Does this worry anyone else?

my point could have been made more clear,....but i just dont care anymore


think what you will

Nice. Those bees hurt a LOT!