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PostPosted: Tue 03-23-2004 9:45PM 
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John Bono wrote:
:roll: Since when is being sexually deviant a mental disease? By that reasoning, any minority is diseased. Being black is a genetic disease! Being Jewish is a mental disease!

Let's see, being jewish - state of being. Being black - state of being. Being sexually deviant - action. Last time I checked, I could control my actions, but not my state of being.

John Bono wrote:
There you are, folks! Anything natural selection would weed out is a choice! ADHD? Choice. Sickle-cell anemia? Choice. Genetic predisposition to cancer? Yup: chopice.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Yes, brilliant I say! You managed to pick medical conditions that we do our best to treat and cure. Way to further your cause.


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 Post subject: Re: Hmm
PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 12:49AM 


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Well I dont want my tax dollers going to give healthcare to someone who is sexually premiscusis. It is proven that most gay people will participate in high risk sexual acts, more often than their straight counterparts. That is how AIDS got spread so rapidly in the 70's and 80's. As for marriage, why do you need a predominately Christian union to validate the love that you share with someone else? A civil union will do the same thing; and you don't have to pay the marriage penalty.


Wow. There are so many things wrong with this post i really dont know where to begin. I will summarize,... assumptions, myths, fear, mis-information, fear, hatred, ...

I am sure that if some of you made friends with a gay person, you would find that they did not choose to feel that way. The choice thing is a myth that has been passed through time, ... like saying all black people have rythm.. and i know that is not true, for a fact :)

Aids passed so quickly becuase noone knew about it, or what it really was and how to prevent it (general population). Had the initial infections only been in hetero sexuals, i am sure it would have afflitced that group just as fast.

I say life is too short to worry about tax dollars, who is/isnt going to hell, who is doing what in their bedroom,...etc. Just live our lives and love and support one another. Life is just too short to treat anyone like a sub-citizen.

If someone is trying to steal your car, smack him up.... if someone you dont know wants to spend his/her life with someone else, let em be.

my .02


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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 5:22AM 
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Way to go AC (the one post above mine)...I couldn't belive when I read that post...all those myths, things people have believed and passed on that are pure crap...I have noticed a good portion of people saying Being gay is wrong and shouldn't be allowed the rights of getting married are Cowards...you should be able to admit your opinions...I know in my family my opinions are against their core values, but I don't hide it.

But to the comment of why gay people need marriages instead of civil unions is pretty much plain and simple...EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO MARRY WHOMEVER THEY CHOOSE. What would your response be if they were trying to make it illegal for Engineers to marry...but it'll be alright to have a civil union? How would you feel for your loved ones that don't get the "benefits" when you die for her security then if you were married? If anybody truly believes you chose to be gay...which is a stupid opinion..ya'll need to have an open mind...think about how you chose to be an Engineer...you chose to live your life as one. Now religion wise...you chose your religion, and live it to the best of your ability.

Now, I know there are holes in what I say...but don't take things too stupidly...like when I say whoever they chose...I don't mean 12 year olds or sisters...I'm just saying everyone should have the same laws and guidellines. Well...poke holes in my logic..as there are many right now since I'm so tired...I was just so angered by what some stupid people were saying....and I'll respond to any holes tomorrow...

-Nic
Question: For those who believe that being gay is a mental disease...then why shouldn't they be able to get married? If you have ADD or your partly retarded or have many other diseases you're able to get married?

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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 9:06AM 
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To the AC: I never said gay people were sub-citizens, just for the record. That doesn't mean that I can't be against it though.

Musically: The reason why gay people don't need to get married is because it IS a religious thing. Getting married is generally under God. I suppose if I had my way I'd get rid of all the marriages that weren't before God and simply make them civil unions... same rights and all


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 Post subject: Re: Hmm
PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 10:04AM 
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Anonymous wrote:
I am sure that if some of you made friends with a gay person, you would find that they did not choose to feel that way. The choice thing is a myth that has been passed through time, ... like saying all black people have rythm.. and i know that is not true, for a fact :)


So if I have a natural tendency to get angry easily, does that give me justification to beat the crap out of somebody whenever they make me angry? Or if I had a friend with a disorder that caused him to have suicidal tendencies, should I just take the stance, "He's naturally feeling that way, I might as well let him act out his natural tendency,"? No, you try to better both yourself and your friend by doing your best to act contrary to the natural tendency.

Musically Bone-a-fide wrote:
Question: For those who believe that being gay is a mental disease...then why shouldn't they be able to get married? If you have ADD or your partly retarded or have many other diseases you're able to get married?


Look at it this way. Many people have a genetic disposition to alcoholism. It's in their nature to be alcoholics, plain and simple. They can choose to consume alcohol and suffer the effects, and when they do, their actions lead to the removal/restriction of certain legal priveleges, such as suspension of driver's liscense, etc. If you view look at homosexuality as a mental disease (aka natural tendency), then homosexual acts further perpetuate the problem, much like drinking perpetuates alcoholism. You're free to pursue your homosexuality, but that doesn't mean that you are entitled to every legal privilege, which is what marriage is in the eyes of the government.

Where does the concept of right and wrong come from? I hope we all agree that killing someone just for the sake of it is wrong. Why is that? The answer should be something like, "Because it infringes on somebody else's right to life." Well, what is a "right', anyway? Is it some idealistic view that man has come up with? If so, then what motivation is there to follow it? Why should I not make up my own idealistic view that allows and encourages me to kill other people just for the sake of killing them? If you view morality in this way, then our entire legal system is discriminating against people who want to subscribe to a different ideal. The fact of the matter is that there is a moral standard that is unalterable. If it were alterable, or changed as society changed, then it would no longer be a standard. If there were no moral standard, then it would be as unjust to prevent me from killing John Doe as it would be to allow me to kill him. So, for those of you that say it is okay to act upon homosexual tendencies, how does that fit into the moral standard? Can you show how and why it's part of the moral standard, or is it a manmade idealistic standard?

If it is wrong to act on a natural tendency to kill, steal, or hurt someone else, then it is equally acceptable to say that it is wrong to act on a natural tendency of homosexuality.


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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 10:25AM 
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Here's a big problem with all of your reasoning. A disease is defined by something that causes harm. Where the hell is the harm in gay sex? Can you tell me this. Give me one reason why not committing to the gene pool causes harm.

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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 11:22AM 
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dis·ease ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-zz)
n.
A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.


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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 12:29PM 
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John Bono wrote:
moo wrote:
my opinion is that it is a mental disease. some people make the choice to be gay and some people's minds are just messed up that way and they need therapy to straighten it out. Of course I'm probably going to get bitched at because I think they need therapy.

:roll: Since when is being sexually deviant a mental disease? By that reasoning, any minority is diseased. Being black is a genetic disease! Being Jewish is a mental disease! I like the way you think.
Of course, you don't have the worst reasoning skills on this board. That title goes to...
Anonymous wrote:
It is not a choice to be heterosexual. We are predisposed to it biologically because one of any animal's main functions is to procreate. If sex wasn't fun and women weren't attractive, humans wouldn't be around anymore.

There is no biological benefit to homosexuality (other than making sure they don't have kids), so it is a CHOICE.

There you are, folks! Anything natural selection would weed out is a choice! ADHD? Choice. Sickle-cell anemia? Choice. Genetic predisposition to cancer? Yup: chopice.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Thank you republican logic. I will now will myslef into not thinking these ideas are preposterous.
Dubs wrote:
What about hot lesbians? Can they not get married a make sweet, sweet love?

Dubs here makes the best point of all. Listen to him, poeple.


You just seem to be getting more and more stupid. You cannot change being black. You can change being gay depending upon your mental chemistry (imho). Your false ideas show you can't rationalize. Sickle-cell anemia and adhd and the like are not choices. They can be pinpointed to certain dispositions, like chemical imbalance, etc. Tell me what part of the body or what area affects someones sexuality? And most lesbians are butt ugly. I'm just wondering how it can be that everything you say is wrong.

AC wrote:
Aids passed so quickly becuase noone knew about it, or what it really was and how to prevent it (general population). Had the initial infections only been in hetero sexuals, i am sure it would have afflitced that group just as fast.


Actually it spread so fast because of some french guy and bath houses. The other AC was correct in saying so. And it is true that gays are more likely to get aids. The anus is more sensitive to STDs (since it is made to absorb stuff) and so anal sex will more likely spread disease. If you don't believe me, look it up in a medical journal or something.

Musically Bone-a-fide wrote:
But to the comment of why gay people need marriages instead of civil unions is pretty much plain and simple...EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO MARRY WHOMEVER THEY CHOOSE. What would your response be if they were trying to make it illegal for Engineers to marry...but it'll be alright to have a civil union? How would you feel for your loved ones that don't get the "benefits" when you die for her security then if you were married? If anybody truly believes you chose to be gay...which is a stupid opinion..ya'll need to have an open mind...think about how you chose to be an Engineer...you chose to live your life as one. Now religion wise...you chose your religion, and live it to the best of your ability.


If engineers marrying was wrong in the eyes of the religion who holds those marraiges (christianity), then I would say they have a point. I agree that as long as marraige is linked to state responsibilities gays should be allowed to get married. I do not, however, see anything wrong with civil liberties as long as they have all the same freedoms. And I answered your question already on why they shouldn't be married if it is a mental disease.

gillespiefreak wrote:
Where does the concept of right and wrong come from? I hope we all agree that killing someone just for the sake of it is wrong. Why is that? The answer should be something like, "Because it infringes on somebody else's right to life." Well, what is a "right', anyway? Is it some idealistic view that man has come up with? If so, then what motivation is there to follow it? Why should I not make up my own idealistic view that allows and encourages me to kill other people just for the sake of killing them? If you view morality in this way, then our entire legal system is discriminating against people who want to subscribe to a different ideal. The fact of the matter is that there is a moral standard that is unalterable. If it were alterable, or changed as society changed, then it would no longer be a standard. If there were no moral standard, then it would be as unjust to prevent me from killing John Doe as it would be to allow me to kill him. So, for those of you that say it is okay to act upon homosexual tendencies, how does that fit into the moral standard? Can you show how and why it's part of the moral standard, or is it a manmade idealistic standard?

Yup, good arguement. The only problem I have is that I believe that our constitution said everyone has freedom, as long as you are not harming another persons freedom (basically). Being gay does not harm anyone else's freedom, and therefore should be legal. As for why they should not get married, I stated that above.

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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 4:20PM 
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Musically Bone-a-fide wrote:
What would your response be if they were trying to make it illegal for Engineers to marry...but it'll be alright to have a civil union?


I see a pun.

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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 4:44PM 
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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 5:12PM 
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John Bono wrote:
Here's a big problem with all of your reasoning. A disease is defined by something that causes harm. Where the hell is the harm in gay sex? Can you tell me this. Give me one reason why not committing to the gene pool causes harm.


Homosexuality cannot be natural. The human body is not designed to support acts of homosexuality. In quoting Beiniek... "Nature doesn't make mistakes." The harm caused by homosexuality is:
* severe colon damage due to lack of natural lubrication
* can lead to cancer of the colon

No oriface on the human male is designed to accept the sexual tool the male provides in a realtionship. Obviously, the urination canal is too small (unless you are the truth behind some comical jokes). While the sphincter is more of an accurate size, the jiz has no where to go, nor does it serve any function in that area. Male-Male relationships, as well as Female-Female relationships do not reproduce, further invalidating any natural excuse for such behavior.

I'm sorry if you feel like I don't understand this from the homosexual perspective, and since I have not had any first-hand experience, I do know the excuses I have heard, and none (IMO) are valid. I think they are comparable to the excuses a child gives his parents in the toy isle or cereal isle, or they could just be some sort of personal justification that is being forced onto the rest of the public.

If homosexuality was genetic, it would have died out long ago. It is mental, it is something that has been engraved into the person's head. Not necessarily by choice either, but by passive personalities. I'm not calling anyone a schitzo. Take this example:

In grade school, especially 4th grade or younger, children already have a certain personality. Some are very agressive and make fun of others to make themselves feel better, like the king of the playground or something. Some are followers, they kiss the butt of whoever seems to be the dominating personality in hopes of bettering their own predicament. Some are very passive, shy people. These usually take hit after hit from the more aggressive personalities, if they are around these kinds of people. The way these children deal with the forces of these pressures is different with each person (South Park is an excellent example, betcha thought that would never be said).

Switching wheels just a little bit, I am now talking about all of these types of people. Some of the feelings experienced on the playground are these to just name a few:
* inferiority complexes
* loneliness
* starvation for power
* insufficientness (lack of the ability to meet expectations of peers)
Many adults have trouble with these extremely strong feelings (hence brown-nosers, jackasses, and Hitler/Napolean-wanna-be's; I'm sure you have been around these types at your workplace).

These immencely strong feelings at an age when the mind is most feeble and learning to adapt to the new world it has been placed in can cause some positive and negative effects. Some learn how to become manupilative of others, how to make friends fast, how to kiss some serious ass. Then again, some things are not learned because of the pressures: friendship, reliability, etc.

From all of this, it is MY humble opinion that Homosexuality is not necessarily a choice, but it isn't natural either. You did not develope correctly as a child. This could have been your parent's fault, although I really doubt it is, it could have been that group of bullies that you followed around a little too close and idolized a bit too much as a child. I really don't know the exact cause of every homo's homosexuality, but I do know that YOU WERE NOT BORN THAT WAY (unless you are um... that kind of person that is born with both parts).

Homosexuality is purely psycological, not necessarily by choice, but that you adapted to your hostile environment incorrectly (and every grade school playground is a hostile environment).

that was my $1,354.02

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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 8:16PM 
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PostPosted: Wed 03-24-2004 10:53PM 
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moo wrote:
gillespiefreak wrote:
Where does the concept of right and wrong come from? I hope we all agree that killing someone just for the sake of it is wrong. Why is that? The answer should be something like, "Because it infringes on somebody else's right to life." Well, what is a "right', anyway? Is it some idealistic view that man has come up with? If so, then what motivation is there to follow it? Why should I not make up my own idealistic view that allows and encourages me to kill other people just for the sake of killing them? If you view morality in this way, then our entire legal system is discriminating against people who want to subscribe to a different ideal. The fact of the matter is that there is a moral standard that is unalterable. If it were alterable, or changed as society changed, then it would no longer be a standard. If there were no moral standard, then it would be as unjust to prevent me from killing John Doe as it would be to allow me to kill him. So, for those of you that say it is okay to act upon homosexual tendencies, how does that fit into the moral standard? Can you show how and why it's part of the moral standard, or is it a manmade idealistic standard?

Yup, good arguement. The only problem I have is that I believe that our constitution said everyone has freedom, as long as you are not harming another persons freedom (basically). Being gay does not harm anyone else's freedom, and therefore should be legal. As for why they should not get married, I stated that above.


Whoops, I wasn't trying to imply that gay sex should be illegal, because as you said, everyone does have the right to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm someone else. I went off on this tangent because it seems to me that most people who support gay marriage don't see anything morally wrong with homosexuality, and those who are against it view it as immoral. That's not true in every case, but most of the time I'm sure it's a factor.


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PostPosted: Thu 03-25-2004 12:37AM 
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Homosexual activities were considered deviant until a few years ago, in my opinion they still are. You can make all the excuses you want about why people are gay, but it still comes down to the end fact that it is wrong. There is a group of psychologists and psychiatrists in St. Louis getting ready to have a report published that potentially would add homosexuallity back onto the list of known psychological disorders, and people will be able to recieve help for their problem again. The copy of the study I read was fairly convincing, thought I did ask one of the researchers to explain a few parts to me(I got confused with terminolgy). Now, I will also admist it is not my place to berate, or judge people, I can accept people for who they are, no matter what. This is such a devisive issue, but I don't think that two men will ever really constitute a married couple.

Ahhh!

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PostPosted: Thu 03-25-2004 1:51AM 
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Theincredibleedibleegg wrote:
Homosexual activities were considered deviant until a few years ago, in my opinion they still are. You can make all the excuses you want about why people are gay, but it still comes down to the end fact that it is wrong. There is a group of psychologists and psychiatrists in St. Louis getting ready to have a report published that potentially would add homosexuallity back onto the list of known psychological disorders, and people will be able to recieve help for their problem again. The copy of the study I read was fairly convincing, thought I did ask one of the researchers to explain a few parts to me(I got confused with terminolgy). Now, I will also admist it is not my place to berate, or judge people, I can accept people for who they are, no matter what. This is such a devisive issue, but I don't think that two men will ever really constitute a married couple.

Ahhh!


yay for them. I don't know why they took it out in the first place. Well I do *cough* liberals *cough*.

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