And there's no thread about it? Looks like somebody forgot.

I remembered being glued to my TV in TJ all day. Ah, memories. For whatever moronic reasons, TJ was in "lockdown" so you needed your key to get in. To prevent... terrorism? Looting? Who knows.

Anyway, I pretty much made this thread just so I could post this image:

Us in the res college didnt forget about it. We put this up last night as a tribute...

Thanks for the tribute, ResCollege. Unfortunately, many people don't want to remember. What people fail to understand is that this war is going to last a long time, much longer than we'll live. They want it to end today, so do I. However, the bad guys are not going to give up. They are not going to negotiate. The only negotiation those people understand comes from the end of a gun. We must be prepared to fight and kill them at every opportunity. If we cannot do that as a people and as a nation, this war is already lost.

I was in freshman biology in high school (God, seems like it was last week), and my friend walks in who's pretty much a big joker and tells me the Twin Towers are on fire and Pentagon was hit by an airplane. I laughed. Seriously. You pretty much can't take anything this guy says seriously, so I didn't believe him. Then our teacher walked in and told us the news. Shaken up the rest of the day.

Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, and/or being unpatriotic, but answer honestly: how CAN this war possibly "end"? We're too stubborn to ever give in, and there's too many of us for the terrorists to kill us all, so obviously they won't win. But every time we attack somewhere to kill some bad guys, more people become sympathetic to them, and we create more enemies.

This isn't like other wars, where there's a distinct government leading the opposition (example: Saddam, Hitler, etc.) where we can take them out and hopefully most of the rest of the enemies fall apart without leadership. We're fighting a hydra; every time we cut off a head, two more are going to grow back.

Seriously, even without asking the question "when?", HOW do you see this war finally being declared over, even if we don't live to see it? People say there's a light at the end of this tunnel, but I don't even know what it's supposed to LOOK like if we catch a glimpse of it.....

What do you expect, there are a shitload of self loathing, fatalist, Vietnam era idiots, and people educated by them, out there and society has given them too much pull.


Oh and Mage, I figure they have to be killing some of their currency in places such as Iraq, where they are targeting their own civilians...

I think as long as we're being led by this administration, we're going to keep creating more people that hate us because of how mismanaged nearly everything on our side has been. Hell, he can't even keep the people at HOME happy.

All current politics aside though, this isn't a war that can be won. Period. There isn't a defined enemy. Anyone that says that there's a "light at the end of the tunnel" but we won't live to see it is just trying to find justification to continue this vague un-win-able war.

Ben Laden, by this statement "Anyone that says that there's a "light at the end of the tunnel" but we won't live to see it is just trying to find justification to continue this vague un-win-able war.", are you saying we should quit fighting the war? Also, would another administration do any better? If so, which one?

I'm sure another administration could manage it better, and I'm not playing sides here. Bush and his group of fuck-ups have done everything possible to make this a long war.

I don't know if we should quit fighting the war. Honestly, after 5 years, I think we've over-reacted quite a bit. Bush is doing all he possibly can to get as far into our privacy as possible, STILL based on what happened on 9/11. Do you think that's a reasonable reaction?

You think it is only this administration that has invaded our rights? If so, you are most definately playing sides. And, as CPT asked, what administration would have done better. I thought you said that this was an unwinnable war... but then you turn around and say that the Bush administration has prolonged it... so this war will take longer to not win now. Wow, I somehow have trouble following your arguement....

The aftermath of 9-11 cannot be looked at as simplistically as a war. I was a strong supporter of the actions taken to supposedly rid ourselves of this threat over the past five years, but as the war in Iraq continues to deteriorate and as Afganistan has shown signs of falling apart and the Taliban making a resurgance, a logically thinking person has to ask the question, are we actually making things better? And before I'm lambasted as someone who hates America, blah blah blah, I ask you to think of the situation as a scientist, as an engineer. Having been trained in such schools of thought, I must use logic in my job each and every day to take available information, make a reasoned decision and deal with the consequences of that decision. Take the anger and passion from 9-11 out of the equation entirely. Yes, I realize that is a very difficult thing to do. I myself have had the though cross my mind on occasion to send over some ICBM's and turn the place into glass out of anger and frustration, but try to put that out of your mind for a moment.

Look at the events of the past month and tell me what the logical, dispassioned conclusion would be?

Iran has all but rebuffed the UN in its attempts to stop their nuclear program.

The Lebanon/Israel war resulted in massive demonstrations in IRAQ where participants screamed for the blood of Americans and Israelis.

Hezbollah though technically losing previously stated conflict has used their "hearts and minds" campaign of giving money and aid to those who have lost their homes in Lebanon to further endear them to the Arabian countries.

Is this what winning the war against an ideaology looks like?

In no way shape or form am I advocating a pullout from Iraq or Afganistan, the vacuum left by such a move would create that which we sought to prevent. However, I'm asking you to rethink that this need be a "war" on terrorism in the traditional sense. The only real way to defeat terrorism is through education and collaboration to help form helpful intelligence partners and reasonable middle-east leaders. There is a reason kids idolize these radicals and dream of becoming martyrs. THEY'RE TAUGHT TO IN SCHOOL! Just as we are taught that Abe Lincoln and George Washington are great Americans, they're taught that these terrorists are role models. War may have been a necessary step, but the idea that only decades of war will solve this problem is pure folly.

I'll end with this, a rehtorical question asked buy Don Rumsfeld in a memo.

"Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?"

Any engineer worth his weight will know one thing about research, if you cannot measure it, you cannot improve it. War may be the answer in some instances, but we need to get creative here, b/c it is very questionable if what we are currently pursuing is a long term solution or just another band-aid to protect us in the moment at the expense of another 9-11 in the future.

Think outside the box folks, guns alone CAN'T solve this problem.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11 ... _jones.htm
I don't agree with all of the conclusions but it does make some valid points, esp. WTC7. Try to read it with an open mind.

As always, you twist and misinterpret my words so that you "have trouble following it."
Notice how NOWHERE did I say that this is the only administration that has invaded rights and privacy. But it has to be one of the MOST invasive.
And asking me what administration would have done better is not only a huge logical fallacy, but completely irrelevant. I don't need to respond to that.
Yes, I said it was unwinnable war. Maybe I should have said Bush and his fuck-ups have done everything they can to prolong our involvement. Does that make sense now? Or do I have to baby you through some more?

Despite my anti-Bush feelings, and disgust for how 9/11 has become so propagandized. I feel the need to be silent about it today. All the war rallying, persuit of "bad guys," and capitolization from yellow support our troops car magnets, today I just put my agenda on the side.

If we are to honor those who died today, we have to put agendas aside.

T
K
O

You may have to read it with an open mind, but I think you have to read it with an empty head to believe an ounce of it.